Hello Linux community.
I’d like to take a moment to explain what I hope will be a simple concept (so really it’s more of a reminder) that everyone should say least know and understand.
Not everyone (myself included) learns best by RTFM. Some of us need a guiding hand or to watch a video instead. It’s not that we’re lazy or don’t like reading, it’s just that it doesn’t work efficiently enough.
The idea of RTFM is that if you have questions, then we are all on same page with basic information found in the manual. I mean you expect others explain what is already said in the manual. Its like asking how to use your microwave oven, even if you have the manual right at your hand. Now, if the manual is unclear or difficult to understand, that is a different story. Then you can at least say you didn’t understand it. The point is, that you did something before (your homework) and looked at the obvious places like the manual (and maybe further websearch).
People don’t like others being lazy and asking the questions that doesn’t need to be asked. That’s why RTFM exist. As much as you might take the “RTFM” as an offending answer, those people think of you question as offending too. Now there are people who use this term loosely in places when it is not appropriate. Also it depends on the audience. If your grandma tries to use a browser to watch funny cat videos, and asks how to use it, then it would be inappropriate to say RTFM. But if you have a Linux user who asks about how to use
grep, then I think it is an appropriate reply.I suggest to replace RTFM by WHYTSF : What Have You Tried So Far.
The goal isn’t to blame or guilt trip anyone, rather it’s to genuinely help and for that others need to know… WHYTSF?!
sadly dwarfed by YouTube videos that are outdated as soon as they are produced, and web guides nobody maintains. worse, AI scrapers only know this outdated information and happily hallucinate based on it it is EXHAUSTING having users cheer and celebrate the placebo of all the made up bullshit that does nothing in their config or worse breaks everything in unpredictable ways
I hate it when AI hallucinates an answer but I REALLY hate it when I try to ask a question and some smug know-it-all tells me I just want to be spoon fed the answers and didn’t do any research on my own. Usually if I am to the point of writing a post asking for help I have tried the usual ways of finding answers (at least the ones that work for me - man pages decidedly do not) and I’m at the point where yes, I WOULD like to be just spoon-fed the answer if you know it (or at least a relevant link), thank you very much. More than once I have got REALLY pissed off at a guy like that and then usually I’m the one that gets censored or booted out of the forum, while the know-it-all goes on to find another victim to bully. Oh, and then there are the moderators who censor “low quality” posts (except from their friends and users they like).
So when AI came along, I found it much easier to ask it and try to work through the hallucinations than to deal with that, and I suspect a whole lot of other people felt the same, and that is one reason why sites like Stack Exchange saw participation fall off a cliff. And AI keeps getting better and (so far at least) has never once criticized me for not trying hard enough to find something on my own. I get some people want challenges in their lives, but not everyone does and even those who like to be challenged now and then don’t always want it to be in the same areas of their lives. There are people who enjoy running in marathons but who would hate any friction at all when trying to use their computer.
AI scrapers only know this outdated information
While I have experienced this (quite a lot), it’s much easier to spend five minutes figuring this out with an AI than it is to spend an hour trying to work that out by searching forums for answers.
I have a suggestion for those that don’t have a burning hatred of all things AI or Google - try NotebookLM (https://notebooklm.google/) which is FREE for limited usage. It may take you a few tries to learn how to use it effectively *there are videos showing how) but what you can do is give it a list of URL’s on any topic. These can be man pages, wiki links, PDF documents, links to specific posts or discussion forums, YouTube videos, or almost anything that can be accessed via a link. You can include up to 50 links for free (up to 10 at a time, I think it is a bug that if you try to add more than 10 at once it just silently fails and then you have to go to a different “notebook” and come back to try again).
Then when you have added all your links, you can ask for a summary of the material, or ask specific questions based just on the links you have added (no more outdated responses). You can even do things like generate graphics or audio “podcasts” or even videos with really bad visuals (IMHO) based on your links collection if you want to. But what I find is when dealing with complex material it often makes connections that I would never have seen. And did I mention it’s free for limited usage? You just need a Google account to use it (and yes I realize that’s a non-starter for some people, and no I would never ever include anything personal in my links or requests).
I find AI way more up to date then searching.
RTFM long predates videos in the internet; at this point I’d actually call it inclusive of videos and guides.
I actually get pretty pissed off when the only guide for a feature beyond a couple lines of “here’s what this can do” with no elaboration is just a video. I don’t want a video. I want a damn manual with working examples.
But if its all there is, I’ll watch it before asking questions. The same should go for people who prefer videos, they should at least try the manual first, or looking at some guides or videos.
What’s frustrating for people (generically speaking) is when zero attempt is made in advance of posting questions, and from what I see, is the majority of “RTFM” responses.
Oh I hate how everything is a video. Sometimes I just want text so I can ship to relevant section.
It drives me nuts.
At least provide a transcript somewhere. Thats all I ask.
RTFM doesn’t have to literally mean to read text, just like saying “let me google that for you” doesn’t have to literally be google. Both statements are similar; the point is instead of burdening others with teaching you something, go learn it on your own whether that be the manual or random Indian tech youtuber.
Sometimes people ask others instead of googling things because it offers an opportunity to socialize. We all know google is an option. I get what you’re saying, but it’s sad to see this described as a burden.
it’s just that it doesn’t work efficiently enough.
Yeah, but we live in a world of limited resources. in particular labor and specifically knowledgeable linux nerds willing to answers questions for free. If everyone will have that mindset there won’t be a lot of time left to answer the difficult questions .
With that said i agree that occasionally if its done its probably no big deal, there is also linux 4 noobs for those who want to ask some questions to help getting started with linux.
do you mean man pages? man pages are awesome. man is like the biggest deal command in unix.
Ι must say that Arch Linux’s wiki pages are easily understood. But man pages are not. I can’t follow the standard manual format. Just like with IKEA instructions, they just don’t make sense to me. My brain is like that. But Arch Linux pages are good.
there’s a standardized man format? News to me. I thought developers just threw everything in at random order.
RTFM makes more sense in a professional context. I don’t expect anybody to read anything unless 1 they want to or 2 they are being paid to
Saying RTFM in a hobby or recreational space is just being an asshole for no good reason
Meh… There have been a whole lot of braindead “pls do it for me” posts going around since the influx of windows refugees.
I’m not one to be a prick about answering questions to help out, and we all start somewhere, but “help me get steam and my LLM working on Kali linux” where ppl get in way over their heads is becoming a real problem. Worse, they will call the linux community toxic for suggesting they need more fundamentals first.
I interpret the post title as a general “try your best, and come to us when you’re stuck”.
i’m not seeing that stuff much but i do believe you
Counterpoint: Aside from disabilities which specifically impact reading, why wouldn’t someone want to read when it comes to their hobbies? A hobby is something one intentionally devotes time to, typically unpaid and nonprofessionally, because they enjoy it and they want to learn more about it. A large amount of my enjoyment is derived from learning more about the things I enjoy, so not wanting to consume that information makes no sense to me.
I can understand, for example, gaming as a hobby and wanting quick answers if one is jumping ship from Windows to Linux. Linux isn’t the hobby there; just a means to an end. I’d still argue the gamer should develop some level of proficiency with their underlying OS. Otherwise it’s like having trail riding as a hobby without any knowledge or tools to patch a tube, tension a chain or tighten a bolt. One might end up in a situation where they can’t just get an instant answer. Investing a little time in the mechanics could keep a short ride from turning into a long trudge out with a bike over the shoulder.
In the context of “Linux”, broadly, as a hobby - what even is that hobby if it isn’t making an honest effort to learn broadly about various tools, the kernel, scripting and programming languages, and so forth? Linux always struck me as a hobby for people who collect hobbies. Or people that have “learning” as a hobby. It’s why, while I’ll probably never work a day of my life in IT, I know how to do some basic SQL queries, hit an API and parse the JSON, do a little scripting in Bash and Python, utilize a load of CLI tooling much more efficiently than any Windows GUI I’ve ever used, and so on. I’ll never know it all but part of the fun is trying anyway.
just because you find it fun doesn’t mean everyone does. i know a couple Linux users who see Linux as a worthwhile chore: boring, frustrating, annoying, but ultimately worthwhile to get away from Microsoft or to gain functionality Windows does not have.
I agree that Linux is also often a step to the actual hobby: gaming, self-hosting, photography, audio production. I empathize with someone reluctant to learn the ins and outs of Unix file ownership when they are just trying to make beats without paying Microsoft. Sure the knowledge is rewarding, but i can’t blame a person for not grokking it the first time when on the surface is seems pointless
If someone is making an effort to learn and doesnt take my time for granted i’m happy to help them.
Also man pages are usually good but lots of software half-asses them these days
“It’s not a professional’s job to read the manuals they need to know for their job unless I specifically tell them to” is an interesting take. A really stupid one but interesting non-the-less…
I think you misinterpreted their message. Their argument is that it’s an expectation that the professional RTFM (more accurately, to have already done so) which shouldn’t carry over to hobbyists. At least not as strictly. Put another way, “The certified Toyota technician needs to have the fancy book learnin’ while the weekend wrencher or shadetree mechanic shouldn’t be held to the same standard.”
I disagree insofar as, short of inaccessible resources (sadly becoming more common in my automotive example) or a lack of time and money, there’s no reason a hobbyist shouldn’t strive to educate themselves and achieve professional level of excellence. So long as they enjoy it, anyway. That’s really the point of a hobby.
the problem was that nobody paid ooops@feddit.org to read any of this
RTFMP - I’d read the man pages if I could decipher them. 😁
Mostly /s
I can’t count the number of times I swear I read every man page and I can’t figure out how to structure my arguments–especially when they are nested or conditional.
I especially wish more man pages had common examples. Sometimes an example can say more than a paragraph of explanation.
I especially wish more man pages had common examples.
A thousand times this. It’s all well and good telling us what each option does, but if we don’t know how to form the command around the various arguments and paths, then it’s all fairly useless.
I feel like you’d love
tldr.Caddy when I was trying to learn setting up encrypted hello.
I can relate : I’m a noob. I often don’t understand the manual, so I look for forum posts that are clearer/ easier to follow/more directly related to my problem and most of the time I find some.
“RTFM” (or similar comments like “it’s in the docs”) are just mean and useless without a reference.
Like, okay, superior user in the internet: If it’s in the manual/docs, what page? Do you have a link? Could you quote the relevant section?
Often people ask because they couldn’t find the answer in the docs. Simply pointing them at the answer is infinitely better than “lol the answer is in there somewhere”
See also: “Let me Google that for you…” Like mf Google brought me to this thread!
I agree that “RTFM” can be insensitive, and even mean. However, the place it comes from is genuine. It’s nobodies job to tell you exactly what page to look at. If you’ve dug through the docs and still can’t find your answer, make it explicit that you’ve searched the manual, and perhaps be explicit about parts you don’t quite understand.
The whole “RTFM” thing was born from people asking for help when they obviously hadn’t made a proper try themselves first.
often on linux, you can simply type
man <command>and get TFMi would agree with you about GUI apps, where it can be confusing.
Yeah, that’s what I meant by “the manual”. Though I suppose the Linux community is the most likely to be flipping through a physical book to figure out their bash script.
What’s worse, is if this is GNU-ware, there is a good chance the answer IS NOT IN THE MAN PAGE. I think it was bash or maybe gawk. I don’t remember exactly, but I had a question that simply wasn’t answered in each man page. GNU docs are absolute trash, written without any consideration for the audience.
I think GNU favors the info tool, try that if the man page is lacking.
I feel like every time I’ve gone looking for an info page, it was just the man page content, but now I’ve got some useless shit I installed.
I mean, maybe this is a debian thing.
I am not an expert but I will help you where I can!
What manual? What part of the manual? What if something happens that the manual didn’t cover? What if the manual is out of date or wrong? What if the maintainer of the manual made a mistake?
RTFM works for uncomplicated things and/or is a good starting place but is largely an unproductive thing to say these days in my opinion
If it’s a more complex subject matter i can understand people asking questions, because in those cases the documentation can also be more difficult to understand. I’ve asked questions in those situations myself as well, and a video of someone walking you through it can be very helpful. When someone asks the most basic questions ever i tend to be more on the RTFM side of things though. If you ask a question that literally has like a oneliner answer in the manual it seems to me like you didn’t put in that much effort before posting. I never actually RTFM’d someone though. I either answer anyway if i feel generous, or i just ignore it lol.
It’s a skill like any other. When you need to look up something, make yourself at least try tldr, man, etc. first. Over time you will find yourself skimming through man pages to find what you need faster than looking up a video.
