“That’s why I always have 10GB of free ram on my laptop with 16GB of ram” lol, good job sport I wonder if they browse the web on command line? lynx and curl can be rough. I take the position that sometimes gui is good, sometimes tui, sometimes cli. ncurses is a headache to write for.
Yeah browsers are the main GUI I use. w3m is great for reading blogs and those types of things but like you say, not the best experience. And we can’t really blame it on them, the modern web is horribly written most of the time.
For sure, Cli browser is just not the way to go.
CLI designers: “Here are the commands and arguments in a txt file, they’ll only change when absolutely necessary and we’ll be sure to inform you both in the docs and as a warning in the CLI itself.”
GUI designers: “go fuck yourself and re-learn where we hid all the buttons this time, after waiting for our two second fly-in animation for every submenu of course. Don’t worry though, here’s a condescending popup tour that only shows you the most basic features you could already see with your eyes. If you’re still confused, here’s an AI chatbot that will just repeat the contents of the popup tour and then act like you’re an idiot. Hey, HEY! STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING THIS INSTANT AND READ ABOUT OUR NEW BUZZWORD FEATURE YOU NEVER ASKED FOR! TRY IT NOW OR ELSE! Also we’re keylogging you and recording your mouse movements as “analytics” for “”“improving””" our UI (even though it’s only getting worse with each new version), you understand. "
CLI: Here’s a txt file, now memorize it you peasant
Good GUI: Welcome back my friend, straight the thing again? Btw on the right you can see some relevant info and links.
yeah good GUIs are really important for people who use a lot of programs lol.
I can’t remember everything at once, I’ve got better things to do
CLI: Welcome back my friend, forgot a command or argument? Just type
--helpand read the super terse and bullshit free txt file in less time it takes for the GUI startup animations to finish. Too long? Type| grepto directly search for it in less time than it takes for the search button to expand and let you start typing! Realize you keep doing the same few steps? Just write a script instead of memorizing what specific sequence of buttons to click or hope that the GUI remembers where you left off! Need to tell a team member how to do something? Just send them the commands or a full script in chat instead of jumping on a video call and walking them through which of these abstract, indescribable icons they need to click which they’ll definitely get wrong and open some weird submenu you then have to tell them how to leave!GUI: Ooh a GPU and gigabytes of VRAM just for my animations? You shouldn’t have! Ooh you mouseovered something for one millisecond while moving it to the actual thing you want? Let me lag the entire window and cover up the thing you wanted with this popup that takes longer to disappear the more irrelevant it is! Also none of the text in mouseover popups is selectable so you can’t copy from it even if you did need it (Visual Studio static analysis messages I’m looking at you). Still need help? Well you first have to find where the help button is if there even is one! We’re increasingly not including help files because it “should” “just” be intuitive. Or just watch a 10 minute video walking through how to do something that could have been two lines in the terminal, stupid! Want to automate something that takes like ten clicks because we hid everything in nested submenus to “avoid clutter”? Go ahead and install a third party macro suite and record your mouse clicks and movements that will break as soon as the next update drops and slightly shift the margins around!
That’s an excellent description of Microsoft Office after 2007.
I generally agree but it depends on the application and the computer purpose / input you will most use.
Like… it doesn’t make much sense to have a CLI/TUI for an image editor… if you start using things like sixel you are essentially building a GUI that runs in a terminal, not a TUI. The same happens with videogames, video players and related entertainment applications.
But like I said, I do generally agree. I’d even argue that when possible, GUIs should just be frontends that ultimately just call the corresponding CLI programs with the appropriate parameters, avoiding duplication.
Exactly. I’m on the exact same boat, the blog post is the proof! :D
GUIs just being front-ends for a CLI tool is a horrible idea. This is why most git GUIs fail so terribly. I have seen too many of those where all the buttons were just replacements for CLI calls. If it is just a front-end for a CLI, then why the heck not just use the CLI?
A good git GUI has not been designed to just wrap the CLI. Instead, it works with the structure of git (commits, branches, tags, etc), and builds around those from the ground up. Only once the functionality has been designed should the question arise: What CLI commands do we need to implement this?
In general, I agree that you can always use the CLI raw, but a frontend is a lot more friendly for many. It’s the reason some people prefer TUI over CLI as well (some people really like
lazygitandlazydockerwhich are just frontends wrappinggitanddockerCLI calls and presenting it in a TUI). A TUI/GUI can structure information in panels, it can be more context-sensitive and it can help provide visual representations of the operation.Also, wrapping CLI commands (whether through a GUI or a TUI) means the wrapper can automatically combine the commands in whichever way it’s best for a particular goal, or more conveniently set up batch processing… it’s helpful for people who don’t like having to make their own scripts, or craft long oneliners.
Plus: lets say you have your computer hooked to your TV and don’t have space for a keyboard (but can use a small wireless mouse on the arm of your couch), a GUI wrapper that allows you to perform operations with just a mouse can be very convenient.
I don’t know what kind of GUIs are you imagining, but I’ve hardly ever seen 1-to-1 recreations to a single individual command (unless that command is extremely complex or a graphical representation would be actually useful).
Some examples:
Gparted creates a job list of terminal commands for the disk manipulation, but it presents a graphical representation of the disks before you actually commit to executing the commands internally, so you can see what would be the result of the changes in the GUI side before actually pressing the button that actually executes
parted,fdisk,mkfs,resize2fs, etc. (they do wrap the commands when it comes to executing the changes), without you needing to go through the steps and specific syntax of each of them on your own.There are wrappers to
ffmpegfor video editing or transcoding that some people find convenient for discoverability of the options available and/or to have a limited list of presets / sanitized options for those who don’t want to bother creating their own scripts. Sometimes also showing video previews for the graphical representation (useful when the operation is about cropping the image, or picking the exact millisecond where to cut). An example is LosslessCut, they keep a log of the ffmpeg calls… or maybe Shutter Encoder (press Alt+C to see the console commands).In Synaptic, the GUI package manager, pressing “Apply” calls the appropriate APT commands as a CLI app inside a VTE with the selection of the packages you have decided to add/remove/update, which you have previously selected in the listing that is generated from the GUI view of the app. Some people like having a graphical detailed listing which might be useful for conveniently browsing packages and seeing their detailed description, while still you get the raw information and accurate log from the installation that you would get when you are just using the CLI.
Thumb rule: whichever I feel comfortable with in a given situation, I use.
Totally agreed!
What is a TUI? I haven’t heard that term before.
ncurses and similar. Think 1980s word processor, emacs, vi, Slackware installer, etc.
Slackware was my first linux back in the day. :)
Emacs is actually a real GUI application. It has font sizes, variable width fonts, image display, etc. and with the pGTK backend even native wayland support. It also has a rendering backend for the terminal, and some people have their reasons for using it, but the default and general advice is to use Emacs in GUI mode.
TUI:
TerminalText User Interface, something like htop in example. CLI: Command Line Interface, something like grep in example.Edit: “Text” is probably the correct word, not “Terminal”.
Isn’t the T for “text”? (ie. “Text User Interface”)
I mean, in the context of Unix systems it’s most likely gonna be within a terminal emulator, but in theory you can have a TUI inside an SDL window rendering the text there (specially when they are ports from other systems where they might be using different character sets than whats available in terminals… or if they want to force a specific font).
The only example that comes to my head right now is ZZT, but I believe there are many games on Steam that use a TUI rendered within their own program, not a terminal.
Text makes sense. I mostly read it as “Terminal” and do not know what the original meaning is with a certainty. Looking at Wikipedia, the source of truth, it’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text-based_user_interface . You probably right about it.
thanks. I was going to ask but figured someone else might and thanks @thingsiplay@lemmy.ml as the top example makes it I think clear I think. if im right then vi would be tui as well.
It’s a UI that sits in the terminal (thus TUI). Think htop, or btop; They are often ran from CLI, but offer more of a UI.
Thanks! I guess something like vim would count as a TUI then.
Yes. Think of any terminal application with an interactive user interface, that mimics a GUI. Something that is not just controlled by commandline options like grep and sed in example.
I’d say vi is in a fuzzy grey area below a tui. It’s more than a cli but shares a lot with cli programs; it pretty much has its own command line built in. At the same time it has nothing like dialog box or menus like normal tui programs.
Personally, I feel that if it uses control characters to update the screen in previous positions, altering the scroll buffer, moving beyond where the cursor is and redrawing the screen, then it’s a TUI.
CLI programs only output plain text in a stream, using just control characters for coloring and formatting, and if they do any re-drawing it’s only for the current line (eg. progressbars and so).
So… even something like
lessis a TUI program… but things likemoreorsedwould be CLI programs.Fair enough. I’d never consider less to be a TUI program.
well, actually nobody gives a shit, use whatever you fit best for the task.
For me to be able to use whatever I want, it needs to exist. Therefore it is a relevant discussion to have, since it might influence a developer to consider TUI instead of just going for GUI as the default.
Waiting for others to do something for you is the wrong approach. Get off your ass and be the developer. Creating an interface for a tool is no rocket science.
It’s significantly easier to make a third party GUI for a command line tool than to make a third party CLI for a GUI only tool because you’ll be working with an opaque binary that doesn’t have any public APIs.
Ironic coming from someone that is using a computer with OS and programs written by someone else and hardware constructed by other people, using electricity produced by others, et.c. :)
Entirely unrelated to your point (with which I fully agree) but wouldn’t it make more sense to replace the first period in “et.c.” with just a space (if you’re not going to forego the period)?
etisn’t short for anything so the period doesn’t quite make sense (and you wouldn’t be using any more letters than you already are).No worries, either way (obviously); I was just thinking.
You are completely missing the point of “Oh, mister developer sir, please, you absolutely must make me a button here so I can rename a file. I insist! I’ll even draw you a little spider in return.”
I am a developer and I find others perspective on usability interesting. Each to his own I guess.
And they say we are no longer toxic
I use
BTWPff, you’re using one of those newfangled CRTs? I use a mechanical teletype that makes my computing sound like hammering nails.
mechanical teletype? Pfff. Grow up and learn to read your blinkenlights already. Heck, while you’re at it, here are 16 switches and three buttons. That should be more than enough for anything ever.
I’ve seen your tool box. I’ve shared some that may be good additions to your shop ;)
Ooh thanks! I was really looking to forward to such additions!
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Someone has never configured a managed network router! Disorganized feature creep is the name of the game in there: gotta make sure the old commands still work exactly the same but add new ones constantly for new features!
