In the next ~6 months I’m going to entirely overhaul my setup. Today I have a NUC6i3 running Home Assistant OS, and a NUC8i7 running OpenMediaVault with all the usual suspects via Docker.

I want to upgrade hardware significantly, partially because I’d like to bring in some local LLM. Nothing crazy, 1-8B models hitting 50tps would make me happy. But even that is going to mean a beefy machine compared to today, which will be nice for everything else too of course.

I’m still all over the place on hardware, part of what I’m trying to decide is whether to go with a single machine for everything or keep them separate.

Idea 1 is a beefy machine and Proxmox with HA in a VM, OMV or TrueNAS in another, and maybe a 3rd straight Debian to separate all the Docker stuff. But I don’t know if I want to add the complexity.

Idea 2 would be beefy machine for straight OMV/TrueNAS and run most stuff there, and then just move HA over to the existing i7 for more breathing room (mostly for Frigate, which could also separate to other machine I guess).

I hear a lot of great things about Proxmox, but I’m not sold that it’s worth the new complexity for me. And keeping HA (which is “critical” compared to everything else) separated feels like a smart choice. But keeping it on aging hardware diminishes that anyway, so I don’t know.

Just wanting to hear various opinions I guess.

    • hperrin@lemmy.caEnglish
      3·
      4 days ago

      It’s got more than just VM management, but yeah, it’s a frontend for a bunch of other services, that you don’t need Proxmox for.

    • Creat@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
      201·
      4 days ago

      but you can do everything without it.

      yes but why would you? There’s a reason we use GUIs, especially when new to a field (like virtualization).

      • solrize@lemmy.mlEnglish
        2·
        4 days ago

        libvirt comes with some gui tool of its own, though I haven’t used it. I generally prefer to understand what I’m doing, so I use command line tools or API’s at first. GUI’s are a convenience to use later, once it’s clear how they work.

      • vividspecter@aussie.zoneEnglish
        4·
        4 days ago

        yes but why would you?

        Mainly because you’re required to use their distribution, or to build on Debian, which is not to everyone’s liking.

        Of course that’s an argument against proxmox, and not virt-manager and the like.

  • TunaLobster@lemmy.worldEnglish
    11·
    4 days ago

    I did it purely so I could fully back up my server VM and move it to new hardware when I wanted to upgrade. I just have to install Proxmox, attach the NAS, and pull the VM backup. And just like that everything is back to running just as it was before the upgrade! Now just faster and more energy efficient!

    • dieTasse@feddit.orgEnglish
      2·
      2 days ago

      I have recently moved non-vm truenas to a new hardware and actually it was a breeze. I just created the backup, disconnected the drives, physically put them into the new server, install the truenas, restored the backup, and it was done. I understand that everyone has different preferences. I’m just saying that it’s easy to move truenas without it being the VM as well.

  • FiduciaryOne@lemmy.worldEnglish
    4·
    4 days ago

    I like ProxMox too, I’m quite happy that I dove in with it. Just one word of warning - if you mount a drive volume in a container, destroy the container and restore it from a backup, it wipes out the mounted drive. I, uh, lost a bunch of data that way. Not super important data, but still.

    I’m still glad I went with ProxMox though. It makes spinning up something a breeze, and I also went with HA in a VM, and another Debian VM for Docker, and a bunch of random LXCs.

      • FiduciaryOne@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        3 days ago

        Yeah, not a bind mount. There was a warning, but I was restoring a ton of LXCs and clicked through the warning too fast. My fault, I’m not super sore about it, just warning others as a service to prevent what happened to me!

    • frongt@lemmy.zipEnglish
      3·
      4 days ago

      If you can replicate it, you should really file a bug report so that the next guy doesn’t lose data.

  • poVoq@slrpnk.netEnglish
    74·
    4 days ago

    Proxmox adds a lot of complexity and a nice GUI. If you are fine with using the terminal, there is really not much benefit from Proxmox and the potential issues from the added complexity are IMHO not worth it. I am not a Proxmox expert though, so take this advise with a grain of salt 😅

    • pineapple@lemmy.ml
      English
      4·
      4 days ago

      Is it decently easy to create and manage vm’s and containers with the terminal? I use proxmox at the moment. Should I switch to Ubuntu server?

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        71·
        4 days ago

        Should I switch to Ubuntu server?

        Thats a hard no IMO.

        Even if you want to do something other than proxmox (just use Debian, fedora, or opensuse).

        Its not bad from the CLI, you just need to know your commands.

        virt-install --name=deb13-vm --vcpus=1 --memory=1024 --cdrom=/tmp/debian-13.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso --disk size=8 --os-variant=debian13

        Will get you 1 vcpu, 1GB ram, and an 8GB drive worth of debian. If you don’t specify a path, in home under .local/share/libvirt/images it will go!

        You can also then

        virsh edit deb13-vm

        And you’ll get the XML, where you can edit away.

        Personally, I’d rather use the webgui for most things, but yeah its perfectly doable from the CLI.

        • pineapple@lemmy.ml
          English
          2·
          4 days ago

          I would have thought debian is better than ubuntu but I couldn’t find a server version of debian. Where do I find debian server or debian cli only?

      • poVoq@slrpnk.netEnglish
        21·
        4 days ago

        With libvirt it is fairly easy yes. And you can also install a standalone web-gui like Cockpit or use the desktop app virt-manager over ssh to do it.

  • suicidaleggroll@lemmy.worldEnglish
    26·
    4 days ago

    In my opinion, Proxmox is worth it for two reasons:

    1. Easy high-availability setup and control

    2. Proxmox Backup Server

    Those two are what drove me to switch from KVM, and I don’t regret it at all. PBS truly is a fantastic piece of software.

    • jasonweiser@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      2·
      2 days ago

      Upvoted for PBS alone. Incremental backups that are rock solid mean you can completely brick your server and have it back to normal in minutes

  • non_burglar@lemmy.worldEnglish
    71·
    4 days ago

    Don’t use Proxmox, use incus. It’s way easier to run and doesn’t give a care about your storage.

      • non_burglar@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        3 days ago

        Like I said, incus don’t care about your storage.

        I’ve never used PBS, I’ve always just rolled my own. I currently keep 7 daily, 4 weekly and 4 monthly. My data mounts are all nfsv4.

        Edit: isnt it possible to use pbs with non-proxmox systems?

        • MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          1·
          3 days ago

          Yeah it sounds nice but too much time investment for me.

          I can install PBS client on any system but it requires manual setup and scheduling which I don’t want to do. When used with Proxmox that’s all handled for me.

          Also I don’t think Proxmox cares about storage either, I just use ZFS which is completely standard under the hood.

          • non_burglar@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            3 days ago

            Also I don’t think Proxmox cares about storage either,

            Proxmox forces you to add a “storage area”, which is fine, except you must use their mount path of /mnt/pve/ and you must add NFS tuning switches via pve or they don’t work.

            Proxmox is great, I used it for 8 years. But it is also opinionated and doesn’t like non-standard configs.

    • moonpiedumplings@programming.devEnglish
      1·
      3 days ago

      I like Incus a lot, but it’s not as easy to create complex virtual networksnas it is with proxmox, which is frustrating in educational/learning environments.

  • EpicFailGuy@lemmy.worldEnglish
    8·
    3 days ago

    The one factor that no one seems to have mentioned yet that is key for many of us is LEARNING …

    It’s a great way to learn virtualization and containerization

    I use it exclusively to run Linux containers, it makes it very convenient to backup and restore as well as replicate environments.

    We are now migrating our lab at work away from VMW

  • hperrin@lemmy.caEnglish
    8·
    4 days ago

    It’s great if you need what it offers. Otherwise, it’s simpler to set up something like Ubuntu Server.

    I use Proxmox to run my email service, https://port87.com/, because I can have high-availability services that can move around the different Proxmox hosts. It’s great for production stuff.

    I also use it to run my seedbox, because graphics in the browser through Proxmox is really easy.

    For everything else (my Jellyfin, Nextcloud, etc), I have a server that runs Ubuntu Server and use a docker compose stack for each service.

    • JAWNEHBOY@reddthat.comEnglish
      1·
      4 days ago

      I had never heard of Port87 before, how do you like it? And I assume you pay no monthly fee by hosting your own domain?

        • SayCyberOnceMore@feddit.ukEnglish
          2·
          2 days ago

          Interesting.

          I have an old free email provider that’s just passed the email service to another provider

          I’m looking to move because I used to be able to use <anything-at-all>@my-email.domain and I’m not sure I’ll be able to do that anymore

          I basically do what you’re doing - using email prefixes for the site I’m registering with… I even caught a company out once when I suddenly started getting spam from that email address. They’d sold my details…

          • hperrin@lemmy.caEnglish
            1·
            2 days ago

            You should check out Port87. :) You wouldn’t need to change any of your addresses if you bring your domain on. Custom domains is $10/month though, so it would cost you more. Hopefully the features would be worth it for you, and if not, you can always migrate it again to a different provider. That’s something I love about email. If you have your own domain, you can completely avoid vendor lock in.

  • irmadlad@lemmy.worldEnglish
    2·
    3 days ago

    Best thing to do is give it a go and see what shakes out OP. I absolutely love both my Proxmox boxes. In my humble opinion, Proxmox was an easier set up, and the possibilities are endless really. It’s a solid freemium product. Couple it with the extensive Helper Scripts, and Jack’s a doughnut, Bob’s your uncle.

  • muusemuuse@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    9·
    4 days ago

    Do you need clusters that can failure ver from one machine to another? Is yes, proxmox is good. If no, there are less complex options.

  • dbtng@eviltoast.orgEnglish
    13·
    4 days ago

    I use PVE professionally. I could spent some time bitching about how it handles ssh keys and the fragile corosync cluster management. I could complain about the sloppy release cycle and the way they move fast and break shit. Or all the janky shit they’ve slapped together in PBS. I could go on.

    But I actually pay for a license for my homelab. And ya, it is THE thing at work now.

    I’ve often heard it said that Proxmox isn’t a great option. But its the best one.
    If you do try it, don’t bother asking questions here.
    Go to the source. https://forum.proxmox.com/

    • tmjaea@lemmy.worldEnglish
      4·
      4 days ago

      Please elaborate. How does it handle ssh keys? And what is fragile regarding corosync?

      • dbtng@eviltoast.orgEnglish
        4·
        3 days ago

        SSH key management in PVE is handled in a set of secondary files, while the original debian files are replaced with symlinks. Well, that’s still debian. And in some circumstances the symlinks get b0rked or replaced with the original SSH files, the keys get out of sync, and one machine in the cluster can’t talk to another. The really irritating thing about this is that the tools meant to fix it (pvecm updatecerts) don’t work. I’ve got an elaborate set of procedures to gather the certs from the hosts and fix the files when it breaks, but it sux bad enough that I’ve got two clusters I’m putting off fixing.

        Corosync is the cluster. It’s a shared file system that immediately replicates any changes to all members. That’s essentially anything under /etc/pve/. Corosync is very sensitive. I believe they ask for 10ms lag or less between hosts, so it can’t work over a WAN connection. Shit like VM restores or vmotion between hosts can flood it out. Looks fukin awful when it goes down. Your whole cluster goes kaput.

        All corosync does is push around this set of config files, so a dedicated NIC is overkill, but in busy environments, you might wind up resorting to that. You can put cororsync on its own network, but you obviously need a network for that. And you can establish throttles on various types of host file transfer activities, but that’s a balancing act that I’ve only gotten right in our colos where we only have 1gb networks. I have my systems provisioned on a dedicated corosync vlan and also use a secondary IP on a different physical interface, but corosync is too dumb to fall back to the secondary if the primary is still “up”, regardless of whether its actually communicating, so I get calls on my day off about “the cluster is down!!!1” when people restore backups.

        • tmjaea@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          3 days ago

          Thanks for your answer.

          I use proxmox since version 2.1 in my home lab and since 2020 in production at work. We did not have issues with the ssh files yet. Also corosync is working fine although it shares its 10g network with ceph.

          In all that time I was not aware of how the certs are handled, despite the fact I had two official proxmox trainings. Ouch.

          • dbtng@eviltoast.orgEnglish
            5·
            3 days ago

            Cool.

            Here. SSH key issues. There was a huge forum war.
            https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/ssh-keys-in-a-proxmox-cluster-resolving-replication-host-key-verification-failed-errors.138102/
            But its still a thing. That still needs to be fixed by a human. Today that’s me.

            Regarding CEPH and corosync on the same network … well I’m just getting started with that now. I do have them on different vlans, but its the same 10gb set of nics. I’m hoping if it gets really lousy, my netadmin can prioritize the corosync vlan. I’ll burn that bridge when I come to it.

            EDIT … The linked forum post above leads to the SSH key answer, but its convoluted.
            Here’s what I put in my own wiki.

            Get the right key from each server.
            cat ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub

            Make sure they match in here. Fix em if they don’t.
            /etc/pve/priv/authorized_keys

            There’s a couple symlinks to fix too, but this should get it.

  • JeanValjean@piefed.socialEnglish
    7·
    4 days ago

    From an earlier post I made much like yours, I decided to go with incus. I’d be fully migrated if real life hadn’t kicked me in the taint for a few weeks.

  • melfie@lemy.lolEnglish
    61·
    4 days ago

    I shy away from VMs because I prefer having a pool of resources on a machine that can be used as needed instead of being pre-allocated. Pre-allocating CPU, RAM, and doing PCI passthough for GPUs wastes already limited resources and is extra effort. Yes, the best practice for production k8s is setting resource requests and limits, but it’s not something I want to bother with when I only have one server.

    • SayCyberOnceMore@feddit.ukEnglish
      4·
      3 days ago

      Just to address the resourcing point…

      VM resources can be over allocated, meaning that the hypervisor will try it’s best to meet their requirements, so you’re not wasting anything and could run more VMs than you have resources for.

      Yes, VMs can also be configured to need a certain amount of resources and the hypervisor will have to stop, but I just wanted you to know it’s not fixed.

  • polle@feddit.orgEnglish
    1·
    4 days ago

    I need do update my hardware and thought about switching to proxmox, because of all the good things i hear about it. Iam currently on unraid, but this thing still runs and its the same installation of 7 years ago. It had zero downtime. Mutliple drives, vms and docker container. Easy to use and rock solid.